INTERVIEW BETWEEN ALICE MAYHEW AND LEN COLODNY |
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MAYHEW/COLODNY INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT 10/18/89 |
COLODNY: | I did an interview with John Dean and . . . |
MAYHEW: | Oh? |
COLODNY: | . . . and I wanted to come back and ask you because there were some contradictions, if you could explain exactly what he was talking about. |
MAYHEW: | I'm not sure. |
COLODNY: | Well, I asked him about the, you know, how the book was put together and in the author's note he clearly says up front that it was a reconstruction of his -- of documents in his testimony was - is that your recollection, what's in the, uh, au-- author's note? |
MAYHEW: | I-- I can't remember, it's been a long time. Do you have a copy of the book? |
COLODNY: | Yeah, yeah I have a copy of the book and I'm reading from the author's notes in the book and it's -- there's some contradictions between his testimony and the book and the explanations he gave seem a little strange, in one case he blames you for inaccurate material being in the book. |
MAYHEW: | Blames who? |
COLODNY: | You. |
MAYHEW: | Me personally? |
COLODNY: | Yeah, in other words, I said to him how did it get there -- a-- I'm not sure that the material's inaccurate, to be honest with you, I'll read you the quote from Dean . . . |
MAYHEW: | Okay. |
COLODNY: | . . . specifically. |
MAYHEW: | Okay. |
COLODNY: | We're talking about chapter three, I think it's the tickler, where he talks about how he thinks all this got started. |
MAYHEW: | Hmm-mm. |
COLODNY: | And, ah, I pointed out to him . . . |
MAYHEW: | How -- how what all got started, the whole Watergate thing? |
COLODNY: | Yeah, you know, he got -- i-- it essentially says that there was this memo from Haldeman to, ah . . . |
MAYHEW: | Yeah. |
COLODNY: | . . . ah, from Nixon to Haldeman it ended up . . . |
MAYHEW: | Right. |
COLODNY: | . . . with Dean and involved the Hughes/O'Brien matter. |
MAYHEW: | Right. |
COLODNY: | Something that most people have thought all along had something to do with the break-in. |
MAYHEW: | Right. |
COLODNY: | Ah, and I asked him, specifically about the Hughes/O'Brien problem, you know, that -- that in his testimony he said, ah, something to the effect that, well quote, I'll quote from his testimony . . . |
MAYHEW: | Yeah. |
COLODNY: | . . . ah, he said in his testimony that the O'Brien stuff was peripheral for his office, that he really was no big deal and he had nothing to do with it. |
MAYHEW: | Right. |
COLODNY: | Well, the book directly contradicts the testimony. |
MAYHEW: | What does the book say? |
COLODNY: | Well the book has him getting this memo and shows he's dealing with Bob Bennett and doing a whole lot of things. In other words . . . |
MAYHEW: | So I presume he -- all right my presumption would be, frankly, if I were in your shoes, was that he's being evasive in his testimony and when he was writing his book when he had nothing to lose he was telling the truth, that's what I would guess. |
COLODNY: | Well, that isn't what he answered. |
MAYHEW: | What did he say? |
COLODNY: | If he -- if he had answered that way it wouldn't have been a problem. |
MAYHEW: | Yeah, what did he say? |
COLODNY: | Ah, what he said in his, ah, let me get the exact quote because it -- he says essentially this stuff came about, quote, "Because you put it in, not because it was accurate, you wanted to make the book interesting." |
MAYHEW: | Read me what he says. |
COLODNY: | Na-- all right hold on, let me get the verbatim on this would ya? |
MAYHEW: | Hmm-mm. |
COLODNY: | [PAUSE] Ah, I was pointing out to him the contradictions . . . |
MAYHEW: | Yeah, okay. |
COLODNY: | . . . and I said to him, "Look, let me give you an example, in your testimony to the committee, let's just take two issues, one was Larry O'Brien, to which you passed over as a peripheral issue to your office. Literally, you said we just didn't have anything to do with it." |
MAYHEW: | Yeah. |
COLODNY: | "But in your book you tell a different story." |
MAYHEW: | Yeah. |
COLODNY: | Alright and that's how we got, you know, that's how we got to where we got. Then he came back and he said, quote, ah, something about not wanting to go through -- oh I'll read you the whole verbatim, "I did and let me tell you what, I can go through the process for you what happened is the editors got real excited and wanted to make it more interesting and that's why all that shit got in there." So in other words he's saying that -- that it's a bunch of shit and you all put it in. |
MAYHEW: | No, well, he doesn't say we put it in, he says that we encouraged him to -- to put it in. |
COLODNY: | Well, then he went on to say the testimony -- quote, "The testimony is what I'm going to stand on, meaning that I had nothing to do with it." |
MAYHEW: | Hmm-mm. |
COLODNY: | "And you're asking me to go through a lot of labor and anyway I never actually, ah, went back and re-read my testimony when I was writing the book," which I found strange in light of the author's note which says that's exactly what he did. |
MAYHEW: | Yes, and also how does he -- what is he saying, we told him to put it in, ah, if he didn't go back and read that there was any contradiction between what he was putting in and what the -- testimony said? |
COLODNY: | I -- I agree with you, this is -- this is what's baffling about it, when I hit him with this contradiction the answer was, "I'm still standing by the fact that I had nothing to do with O'Brien . . . . |
MAYHEW: | Right. |
COLODNY: | . . . it was only put in because the editors thought it would be intriguing . . . " |
MAYHEW: | Well . . . |
COLODNY: | But, frankly, I've gotta be honest with you, I went in and researched the -- the internal memos, inside the White House, at the Archives. |
MAYHEW: | Hmm-mm. |
COLODNY: | And he clearly is involved, he's involved with it from day one . . . |
MAYHEW: | Yeah. |
COLODNY: | . . . 'til [April 8th?] . . . |
MAYHEW: | [INAUDIBLE] |
COLODNY: | . . . I'm not -- I'm not criticizing what's in the book. |
MAYHEW: | No, I understand that, I -- wa-- I -- if you want my opinion a-- that -- what I think is that what I said first, that he was being evasive in his testimony and apparently it suits him to be evasive now. |
COLODNY: | Well, there's nothing evasive about saying it's not true. |
MAYHEW: | Well, I -- but he was lying. |
COLODNY: | I th -- that's -- that's another wo-- |
MAYHEW: | Do you want me to put it in Anglo Saxon words, and you can say that I was the editor and, um . . . |
COLODNY: | I know, that's why I came -- don't you -- I wanted to be fair this is a difficult enough book to write and you don't nor--- |
MAYHEW: | Right, well I never told John Dean what to put in his book, and, ah, that's a lie, L-I-E, is that it spells, L-I-E. |
COLODNY: | I -- I take your word Alice if you say that. [LAUGH] |
MAYHEW: | And Taylor Branch who wrote the book, ah, would not a-- who just won a Pulitzer prize for his biography of . . . |
COLODNY: | Yeah, I know, I'm aware of it, do you . . . |
MAYHEW: | . . . ah, would never have been party to -- and if John Dean wants to say that Alice Mayhew and Taylor Branch, ah, are parties to such dishonest behavior . . . |
COLODNY: | Well, he's got serious problems when he -- he and I . . . |
MAYHEW: | He's got serious problems period. |
COLODNY: | . . . I know, he and I -- I know you never published again, another John Dean book. |
MAYHEW: | No. |
